Nomadic Networks: Finding Community Across Borders with Hacker Paradise

Travel Tuesday

Kristin:    00:00:00    Tuesday, November 28th is Travel Tuesday where you can get tons of great travel deals online. Check out last week's episode of Badass Digital Nomads for some of my favorite Travel Tuesday deals. And we'll also leave a list for you in the show notes, including how you can save an extra $100 off of my trip to Portugal next year, April 15th to the 21st. Simply use the link in the show notes to reserve your space with a refundable 25% deposit and use the code Portugal 100 to save $100 off. That's Portugal 100.  

Sneak Peek:

Sara:    00:00:42    When I was working in Brussels, I thought I only had like people skills, but like I didn't have the skills to be able to have a remote job but could let me work and travel. But if you really want something, you can find a way to create your skills and evolve and like there is always gonna be like the need for what you can offer.  

Kristin:    00:01:03    Yeah, if you think of something that's better for yourself out there, if you can see it, you can be it. 

Introduction: Welcome to Badass Digital Nomads, where we're pushing the boundaries of remote work and travel, all while staying grounded with a little bit of old school philosophy, self-development, and business advice from our guests.

Kristin Wilson, Host:    00:01:31    Hey there, Kristin Wilson from Traveling with Kristin here and welcome to episode 235 of Badass Digital Nomads. My guest today is Sara Magnabosco from Italy who is the head of operations at Hacker Paradise. Sara was a community facilitator at Hacker Paradise for a few years before becoming head of operations there. And in this episode she's sharing with us what it's like to travel in a community and she's specifically joining us from Tallinn, Estonia, providing a lot of insights into what it's been like living there for a month with 23 people and also all the things that you can do on these types of trips, the type of social and personal growth and remote work type of events and engagements that they have, as well as meetups, dinners, separate trips and tours that you can take and how she balances group travel with traveling by herself and with her partner.  

Kristin:    00:02:43    We're talking about how to find your travel family and also some of the most memorable trips that Sara has been on including in Uganda and Nicaragua. I also really enjoyed the lightning round of this conversation at the end of the episode where Sara shares her favorite airport, her favorite airline, underrated destinations, and also some things that are both inspiring her and challenging her right now. Now if you are interested in joining a month long or a few different trips or even a year long trip with Hacker Paradise, then you can get $100 off of your first Hacker Paradise trip by using the code Badass100 on their website. That's B-A-D-A-S-S 1 0 0 on hackerparadise.org. The destinations that you can choose from in 2024 include Columbia, Morocco, the Canary Islands, Gowa, India, the Philippines, Guatemala, Bali, Italy, Montenegro, and much more. So give their site a look, see if there's any destinations that pique your interest and use Code: Badass 100 to get $100 off your first trip. 

Podcast Interview:

Kristin: Well, welcome Sara to Badass Digital Nomads. I think you're pretty much the definition of a badass digital nomad. You are joining us from Estonia, is that correct?

Sara:  Yes.

Kristin:  Okay, so you're from Italy, but you're in Estonia. Give us a little bit of insight into your background. Um, how did you get here today?  

Sara:    00:04:34    Yeah, it's a long story. <laugh> I started almost six years ago, so I was one of those who was nomad also before, uh, COVID, Covid time. And I think a piece that might be interesting, uh, of my story is that I became a digital nomad without even knowing what I was doing. Uh, I I was not really aware of a concept at all before joining the Hacker Paradise community. And so it was really like a jump into, into unknown, but I forgot, let's try this out. And now after six years, I'm still traveling the world while working. So it's definitely like a success.  

Kristin:    00:05:13    That's amazing. And what were you doing before you stumbled into the digital nomad lifestyle?  

Sara:    00:05:18    Yeah, so as I said, I'm from Italy, but I actually haven't lived in Italy for the past 10 years now. So at the time I was living in Belgium, uh, I went there for a semester abroad but turned into four years <laugh> of living in, in Brussels. Uh, and there like an internship turned into a job that was actually running a coworking space. So that was back in 2013, 14 and coworking spaces were just like starting and developing and we're really community centered. It was not just a desk and an office space was really all like gathering around the community, community aspect. So I stumbled into physical working space, got an internship there and then got a contract to really foster the community plan event and make sure that the operations of the coworking space were running smoothly. It was a big one, like we were 200 members at that time and it was a lot of like collaborations.  

Sara:    00:06:10    A lot of new ideas were starting new businesses, lots of freelancers. So that was kind of my introduction in the digital no at work, but I didn't know it 'cause everyone was just coming there in Brussels and staying, uh, long-term. It was often like partners of family members with had to move into Brussels. Were kind of tagging along, but the concept of traveling while working was still like unknown to me. And then what happened after four long winters in Belgium, I made a promise to myself that I was not gonna have a fifth winter in Belgium, but weather, like if you haven't been there, the weather, uh, it's very not great. Like it is. Winter is fairly long, it's very gray, rainy. Although I really like my life and my community there, I was like, ah, it's really like there is a lot, lot of sunny places around the world.  

Sara:    00:07:00    Why can't I just live in one of those? So I started applying for a lot of jobs, mainly in the coworking industry. But yeah, nothing was really working out. Like it's really tough to find a job abroad without having like, it's really hard. Like we know you don't get a visa like that. But then a friend sent me a website to Hacker Paradise and I took a look and I was like, okay, this is not real. First the name Hacker Paradise, like what is this like, kind of sketchy? And I was like, oh, this is like exactly how I, I would like to live my life. Is this true? I don't know. But I, they were hiring for a community facilitator role, so I was like, okay, you know what? This application seems pretty straightforward. It seems like I have a profile we're looking for.  

Sara:    00:07:46    I mean just send this application through and see what happens. After a couple of days I was on a, on a call with them and went through the application process and got the, the offer for community facilitator <laugh> and honestly till the day I actually got to Colombia. But it was my first trip back in 2018 in January, 2018. I didn't know if it was true or not <laugh> <laugh> because it sounded just like too perfect, basically. Like my role was to move from a country to another with a group of 20, 25 digital nomads remote workers. Then with the names started sinking into my brain that wanted to yeah, to share the experience of living abroad while traveling together with other, with other people. And my goal, like in my role I was handling the logistic piece, but really the essential piece was fostering the community.  

Kristin:    00:08:36    I think it was meant to be. I mean you come with this community co-working background and then you merge that with your desire to travel and live abroad and yeah, you're getting paid to Yeah, live the dream <laugh>.  

Sara:    00:08:49    Yeah, like I really, like, every time I tell this story I say like, how did it actually work out? Because it was really, really like perfect. And I always thank my friend that sent me that link so much because I had no idea this community existed, but even the lifestyle I would just never really stumble across anyone but live that way. So everything was very like unknown and dreamy and yeah, exotic <laugh> to me 

Kristin:    00:09:14    . And, and now you've been doing it for six years.  

Sara:    00:09:17    Exactly. I did, uh, when I joined Hacker Paradise, we were only five team members, uh, and four of us were Faac community facilitators. So basically everyone also had an internal role in the company, so we were like a lot going on and really contributing to growing the community as well as the business. So I really got my hands into the operations and sales, uh, basically right away for two years I stayed on the road as a community facilitator and also handling some admin and sale piece. And then end of 2019 I was like, okay, it's been amazing to be on the road constantly with a group, but I'm also, it can be very tiring, especially because I didn't have the freedom that a classic digital nomad can have or just deciding to go where you want. It was really dictated by like where the group was gonna be.  

Sara:    00:10:07    But luckily, like my internal role grow enough to have a lot <laugh> to do mobility even without being, uh, on the ground, uh, with a group. And so I just transitioned to a fully remote role first set of operation and turning into COO a couple of years ago. And I've like really truly living the digital nomad lifestyle. Like most of the time I go where I want and then I miss the community. So I come back on a Hacker Paradise trip. Like right now I'm Italian with the Hacker Paradise community. Uh, I was truly missing just some group dynamics and then when I hire and train someone new, I always do it in person. I feel like it's necessary, especially for like the community facilitator role, to have some own background time together. And I usually always do it in Cape Town because it's my favorite place, <laugh>. So I try to go back there every year. But yeah, this is a little bit like how it happened.  

Kristin:    00:11:00    Wow. So, uh, for people who haven't heard of Hacker Paradise before like you did at the beginning, what is it for um, people who don't know it?  

Sara:    00:11:10    Yeah. Hacker Paradise is essentially is a community of remote workers, digital nomads, like anyone that has the chance to work from where they want, if it's for a month or for a year, is welcome to join, to join my community. Then as a service, what we provide is where we take care of logistics. So you don't need to worry about housing, coworking, we book it in advance. You just like sign up for the package. And then the community aspect when you join, you know, there are certain activities but are planned by us with a goal of socializing and also some professional development. We learn a lot from each other. We have professional comings from very different backgrounds. Uh, so of course we have a tech people. That's how Acro is actually started. Back in 2014, it was a group of developers. We just went to Costa Rica and at the beginning was really tech heavy, like a lot of developers, um, engineers. But in the years it really evolved. We did a lot of work to like open the doors to creatives or like any kind of job that can be done remotely. So as now the community is really, really diverse from lawyers, translators like classic jobs, but also YouTubers, content creators, uh, graphic designers, there are a lot of entrepreneurs and freelancer. It's very like very dynamic community. So basically it's logistic and community combined.  

Kristin:    00:12:34    Okay. So people can focus on their work and just enjoying their time there and not having to worry about finding a place to live or getting internet or coworking membership and things like that.  

Sara:    00:12:47    Yeah, Yeah. I would say like people kind of join for true main reason. We have experienced digital nomads experience travel. They traveled a lot on their own. And then loneliness, it's a thing. I think that's a theme that might come back often, uh, in your podcast, but like when you travel alone is not that obvious. It's not that automatic to create your own community. When you travel to a place for a limited time and can be exhausting, you can definitely do it on your own and like just gets exhausting. <laugh>, I mean, it happens to me when I travel, when I travel on my own. So like the community piece is really accelerated and that's a main reason why people join. But also main reason why experienced travelers joins and then there is the logistic aspect. Like when you're, it is the first time that you want to go abroad, you don't know from where to start. It's just easy to delegate logistic to us and just don't have to think about it. Or is this place gonna have good wifi? Like we take care of, of everything.  

Kristin:    00:13:44    Do you have people that go that aren't working? Either they're on sabbatical or they're retired?  

Sara:    00:13:50    So we have a selection process, uh, to join the community and that's one of the things we really talk through. So for us it's important that everyone has a job, but it's true that we have also people joining but are in transition on sabbatical. The important piece is to still have a, some sort of project that they, they're focusing on This is because it's can be very weird to have even outta a group of 20, to have five people that are more on vacation mode. The group dynamics just don't align. And there is a like, kind of like, it is not the best vibe. So we really focus on people that are there to learn from each other, to get inspired, to get support from the community. So yeah, you don't need to have a, a job at the moment, but at least like even if you're applying for jobs or like trying to start your own business, that's like a good reason. And retired, not fully retired. We had people that formally retired, but we still like consulting on doing some little jobs. So like of course we're not gonna count. Are you gonna work eight hours per day? No, that's not the case. But if you at least like have a professional project you're working on, then you're welcome.  

Kristin:    00:15:01    Yeah. Well well let's use Tallinn as an example. So you're with a group of how many people in Talend?  

Sara:    00:15:09    We're 23.  

Kristin:    00:15:11    Okay, so 23 people, all different backgrounds that come to Tallinn. How long are you staying there and how are people living? Is everyone together in the same building? Are you in different buildings? Kind of walk us through how the structure is and also like a day in the life of, of a Hacker Paradise member.  

Sara:    00:15:34    So we are gonna, we are staying here for a month. This is actually the last few days. So we always, trips are generally four weeks. Some trips are eight weeks and very few trips are two weeks. <laugh>. Here we are staying in a very, very special location. It's actually an experiment. We never stayed in a place like this, uh, before. It's a hotel, but it's a container hotel. So each room is made of like what was a container in the past and very rearrange it actually, it's really, really cute. Rearrange it as uh, bedrooms. So we all live in the same place. There is um, a coworking room. There is a chill, we call it a green area because there are, there is some fake grass and trees, <laugh>, <laugh>. And then there is a shared kitchen. So this is definitely like not the usual setup that we have for a hacker.  

Sara:    00:16:21    Paradise strips kind of trying to see uh, how he goes. Otherwise, other trips are two or three bedroom apartments. We are all walking distance from each other. The promise we make is also that the co-working space is always maximum 15, 20, 20 at the very, very maximum minutes walking. So the like commuting, like with public transportation or taxis, like it's never necessary in our um, setup. Other times we take over a co-living space, so we just like rent the old building, uh, just for us. Other times we get studios, maybe all Olympic the same building. So like we set up of a trips kind of change depending on the destination. That's also one of the reason why we do a chat with everyone, uh, before you join the trip. So we can go through all the details, set the right expectation, talk through the logistic pieces, and then of course they were always available like by email.  

Sara:    00:17:14    Like for us it's very important to set the right expectations. So if everyone knows like, here, everyone knew we were gonna be in this container hotel. So no one was like surprised like, oh, I was expecting a villa. No. Like we tried to do a good job at setting the expectation. And then a day in a life, I would say every day is a little bit different. The core of it is when people like your job, that's gonna stay like the constant peace in your life. And we make sure that like everyone is the condition of being productive while on the road because everyone wants to maintain this lifestyle. No one wants to get their boss annoyed. So like the condition for you to be productive are like kind of provided. And then what we do is like kind of every day there is at least one chance to hang out with the group.  

Sara:    00:18:03    So Monday, Monday we always go out for lunch. Monday lunch is paid by hp. It's a nice way to to start to start the week. Then on Tuesdays, the first Tuesday is actually a very important day because we meet all together and we create a bucket list of all the things we want to do during our stay. So it's kind of like a brainstorming, we have a whiteboard and we just write down everything and we create this bucket list and then people based on their interests, they start doing the research, putting it on Slack. I'm gonna explain a little bit about Slack, uh, in a second and then like invite participants to, to do the experience together.  

Kristin:    00:18:41    Like a crowdsource bucket list of things to do in that month.  

Sara:    00:18:45    Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And now it's the last week. So we are like going through the list and like checking and seeing all the things we've done. We've done a lot. 

Kristin:    00:18:52    <laugh>. I totally do that too. I have a note in my notes up and when I had 10 weeks left in Manchester, I was like, these are all the things I wanna do before I leave. And, you know, eat at this rooftop bar and go to this park and go to this restaurant. And it's good because otherwise the days can just go by and then you look up and it's time to leave.  

Sara:    00:19:14    Yeah, yeah. Especially with working, like it's easy to get like just stuck in a working routine and just always go to the same restaurant or always do the same thing. But we tried really to contaminate ourself with different inputs so that like we can get more done. Tuesday evening is always potluck, then everyone cooks something and we meet either someone's place and we share area and we share a meal altogether. Sometimes it's fairly quiet, uh, like especially in the Europe, Africa, Asia time zone, when we have a lot of people coming from North America. Dinner might be shorter. Other places it can be a, a fun night that continues into a bar. It really depends on, on the vibe of the group. Wednesdays, every Wednesday we have a skill share, so it's a one hour either a workshop or a talk followed by Q&A.  

Sara:    00:20:04    But that's like an important part of our program. As I mentioned earlier, different people, different background, different skills, different passions. Like the skill share doesn't need to be something you are working on necessarily. That can be a passion that you have today. We had one Isaac explain us the history of board games. Like there are many people that are into board games. I'm not one of those, but now I got fascinated by the industry of board games and now we how we work. It was very, very interesting. Thursdays we have DMC that stands for deep meaningful conversation. So usually we vote for a topic and then we facilitate a conversation to go deeper into uh, specific topics. And it's a way it's, it's a safe space for people to open up. Uh, there is like, we have some ground rules, no judgment, we wouldn't talk about the conversation with other people.  

Sara:    00:20:57    We really like make sure that it's a safe space for everyone. And then it's Thursday night out. So every Thursday we find an activity to do altogether. Like while we are here in Tallinn, we had the chance to attend inspirational talk kind of event and meet three super interesting speakers coming from actually Robert Reward was an American guy, uh, CEO of a marketing company from Tallinn. And then via Zoom there was the, um, the first Afghan man that hiked the summit Everest. So it was like a very

Kristin:  Oh wow.

Sara:  Very interesting night. So we always try to find some local events, something special happening in town or wherever we are. And if we are in the middle of nowhere and it happens and I would just go to a restaurant <laugh> altogether. And then the weekends, Fridays weekend is for fun and it's the co-created piece. So that's where there are come up with activities here. Uh, we went to a sauna, we went to a national park, uh, weekend to Helsinki. So then every place is different. So that's hard to say, like how a weekend is gonna go in general.  

Kristin:    00:22:05    Did you walk in the bog in Estonia?  

Sara:    00:22:08    I couldn't make it, but yeah, the group went there. Yeah, I see the picture.  

Kristin:    00:22:14    I missed that too 'cause a blizzard came when I was there, but it looked, I did some hiking out in the forest for, for people who haven't been to Estonia, it has this reputation as being the most digitized country in the world because I think it's one of the only countries, if not the only country where the citizens can vote online. And everything just seems very organized. It's a small population. It's kind of like Iceland in that way. Like, it's like Iceland to me operates like one small municipality and Estonia is kind of like that too, even though they have multiple, you know, cities. 

Sara:    00:22:53    Yeah,  Yeah, it is actually. So we had a workshop around the e residency. They experience like some Estonia history. Now they are at the point where 99% of procedures can be done online. They're working on the 1% left, but 1% left is divorcing. You're still required to show up in person to sign divorce papers. 

Kristin:    00:23:17    Okay.  It seems fair <laugh>. That seems like, yeah. Okay. We'll make an exception for divorce papers.  

Sara:    00:23:22    Yeah, yeah. But it's a very interesting country and yeah, we organize a residency workshop. We had a talk around Estonian culture. So we definitely try like depending on the country where we are to provide like talks or workshops, like learning opportunities about the culture of the country.  

Kristin:    00:23:40    Oh, perfect. I'll, I'll link in our show notes to the videos that I have on Estonia e-residency and the Estonia digital nomad visa so people can look more into that. But yeah, it's a really safe country, really beautiful, so much nature. I think they have the lowest population density in Europe or one of the lowest. And you also have 4G or 5G data coverage over like a hundred percent of the country, even if you're out in the woods, which is amazing.  

Sara:    00:24:13    I think it's as big as Belgium, but it is a 10th of a population. But I wouldn't want to be wrong on the exact number, but it is very, very few people like I think, I don't know, again, I'm not sure it's true if I remember correctly, but it might be just 1 million people in the whole country.  

Kristin:    00:24:29    Yeah, it's, it's quite a low population. I remember going on a road trip there and it's, it's great because it's such a safe country, so you feel like you can just travel around by yourself no problem. Unless you're hiking alone, you gotta watch out for wild animals. Yeah, because because of the low population density, they, they do have more like bears and I think they have wolves, a lot of moose and so yeah, you gotta be careful if you're hiking alone. But um, yeah, it has a lot of nature and also a lot of technology. And then you're really close to, you know, Latvia, Lithuania, you've got a Baltic Sea, so there's beach towns, which maybe now is not the best time to be. Well it's September still so you can take the ferry or a flight to Helsinki. Did you guys take the ferry?  

Sara:    00:25:21    Yes. Yeah, we took the ferry.  

Kristin:    00:25:23    How was that experience?  

Sara:    00:25:25    It's great. It's a two hours ferry and it's kind of like, it's like a cruise <laugh>, like there are so many services, it's huge. There are bars, shops, everything. And like <laugh>, I took it to, I, like I said overnight, but uh, one of our, one of our group, um, the team the same day. So she took the night ferry back and it was like a full-on party <laugh>, like <laugh> like, so it was very, very, very, like it is great experience. They also like of course they were very pay lot of attention to being, uh, green and sustainable. So also these ferries now they're carbon neutral.  

Kristin:    00:26:02    Okay. 

Sara:    00:26:03    Almost.  We say like almost because they're massive and you think like, oh you really have these boats going up and down all day, four times a day and you, you care about them this bad. Say no, no, no, don't worry, don't worry. We are like carbon neutral or whatever. Like we figured it out a way to make it uh, sustainable.  

Kristin:    00:26:21    Yeah, that's good. They need electric boats or something. Electric ferries. Well I did hear that the reason for uh, like a big use of the ferry is I think it's because in Finland maybe it's more expensive to drink alcohol so there's a higher tax. So a lot of people come on the ferry to Estonia to do their drinking <laugh>.

Sara:  Exactly.

Kristin:  Which I also noticed in Ireland, people travel from Dublin to Northern Ireland because it's cheaper to eat and drink up there. So yeah. Good thing to think about if you're in a certain country where things are expensive than maybe the country next door can be a bit cheaper. <laugh>.  

Sara:    00:27:04    Yeah. Yeah. Even though Estonia in the last year and a half suffered with like a huge inflations, so it's still definitely cheaper than Finland, but like Estonia now it's kind of like, it's pricier than we were all expecting.  

Kristin:    00:27:18    Yeah. How much is a typical month in Hacker Paradise and is it less if you do a whole year?  

Sara:    00:27:26    We have, uh, different destinations are different prices. They kind of go started 2209, $2,290 per month and they go up to $2,990 per month. That's the first time you join a trip. Then on your second, third and so on, you're officially a member, so your trips are $200 cheaper. And then we also have a system that the more you trips you join, the cheaper it gets. So if you kind of say no already, oh, next year I want to do three trips, we apply a higher, uh, a higher discount.  

Kristin:    00:28:00    Okay. Yeah. That's pretty reasonable. And then you mentioned that you've had five couples now meet and get engaged .  

Sara:    00:28:10    Yeah they did

Kristin:    00:28:10    And Babies on these trips. So yeah. How, how has that been and um, do you think that this is a way that travelers and remote workers can meet a significant other?  

Sara:    00:28:25    Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it's really tough, you know, like if you, like in your home country or in your home city, it's really hard to meet people that have the same desires you of like can travel, uh, work and travel the way you do it most of the time. And like if I look at my group of friends in Italy, none of them as the same style lifestyle. But then when you join a group like Hacker Paradise, you're surrounded by people, uh, but have a same lifestyle. At least have more flexibility, have more freedom compared to the group of people you might usually hang out with. So yeah, it's definitely like fairly common to meet someone and start traveling together and like the best case ends up in a with a wedding and then babies if we want them. But yeah, it's definitely a way, like I've seen it happen very often.  

Kristin:    00:29:16    Yeah. It's a way to meet people that understand your lifestyle and don't think it's weird and you don't have to explain anything.  

Sara:    00:29:26    Exactly.  

Kristin:    00:29:26    Exactly. And what, where you were from originally Rome, correct?  

Sara:    00:29:31    Uh, Venice called Vicenza. Oh actually it's like close to Venice.  

Kristin:    00:29:35    So I'm always fascinated when people leave a place that everybody else wants to go <laugh>. I mean you could say that about the US because, so many millions of people want to live in the US and then so many US citizens want to leave. It seems like the grass is always greener, but what was it like growing up in a place like Venice and what were you thinking about to want to leave such a beautiful place that, you know, tourists from around the world wanna go there?  

Sara:    00:30:07    Yeah, so I like, I was born and raised in this smaller city close to Venice and I kind of always had this desire as a kid. I knew I didn't want to stick around too long and I truly cannot really explain. I think I had the chance with my parents to start traveling when I was young and I think that like started like my curiosity of the rest of the world. But it's mainly I think a mentality question. I think there are a lot of beautiful places that are like very nice to spend a limited time in, but then if you actually want to grow and have a career becomes more difficult. And it's not that easy in Italy. Like I was in university during the economic crisis. Like we, I kinda grew up with the thing, oh I never gonna find a job. Everyone is miserable with a job.  

Sara:    00:30:57    Like there is not the most stimulating mentality when it comes with work and life. So I, I really had this desire of like experiencing life abroad and I started with Belgium and then really open my mind of more opportunities and like see like, oh you can actually have a job that you like and like you don't need to be miserable. So it's really more a mentality thing where like I think as a tourist you cannot really grasp when you just go as a tourist or like even as a nomad you stay a month in a place but you don't really get like how it is to grow up there. And it was actually the mentality and what are the values that you grow up with. So it was really, I think it is amazing <laugh> I always enjoy going back, but I don't see like it was future young people friendly.  

Kristin:    00:31:47    Yeah. You didn't feel like you had those economic opportunities there. What, do you know what the average wages are in your area? Like someone graduating from university, what could they expect in that corner of Italy?  

Sara:    00:32:04    Yeah, so the thing is that also you just go on and on for with internship for years. So like there is not really a salary for when you graduate because you need to go through unpaid internships for a while. So I feel like I've been, I've been lucky, but I also like build the opportunity for myself with just moving to Belgium and finding one internship there, but then it all right away turn into um, a real job, like a contract and usually like in Italy, might take a while before a company actually hires you. And then there are a lot of contracts that have uh, an end. So like, oh they hire you, we are you for six months, we are you for a year. Like the contract like with no, like a real contract, it takes care of you years later. Now I actually never worked in Italy. Like I was working a little bit during university, but like never really had to experience the job market in Italy myself. <laugh>, I feel like I'm very happy about it. I think like an average salary for someone in their thirties with like a normal, like their job. And I know it's very big, but it's around 1,300 euros per month. I think like when you make you have a lot, you do 1,500, like I think it's really hard to reach 2000 euros a month.  

Kristin:    00:33:24    Yeah. So that could probably cover your living expenses but not much. Yeah.  

Sara:    00:33:30    Then it's true. But like Italy, again, if you go to Milan that's different, but like it's pretty affordable to live in Italy. Again, I also, I never worked in there, so like this is just like based on conversation I had with friends. So I don't know how accurate it is, but I think more or less it should be, it should be around that.  

Kristin:    00:33:49    So are you still a, like a tax resident of Italy? Do you still get healthcare there and everything? 

Sara:    00:33:55    Yeah,  Yeah. I, so I'm technically um, like a technical consult like <laugh>, I have a VAT number and like I basically freelance for Hacker Paradise and my, I still pay taxes in.  

Kristin:    00:34:09    Okay.  

Sara:    00:34:10    So, but yeah, also that comes with the health system and everything. But also, yeah, I have a very, very good <laugh> international health insurance. I usually do all my health things like abroad.  

Kristin:    00:34:22    Oh really? What company do you use?  

Sara:    00:34:24    It's actually Safety Wing but very remote company.

Kristin:  Oh, Remote health plan

Sara:  Remote. Yeah, it's great.  

Kristin:    00:34:29    I heard it's really good. I heard it's much better than the Nomad Insurance.  

Sara:    00:34:34    Yeah, yeah, it's great because it's not only for emergencies, like you get outpatient care paid, like there are different plans but like the one we have is really, really good. Like I can go to the dentist and get it reimbursed and go to the eye doctor. I never know how to pronounce <laugh> that name, but I can go even to chiropractor, acupuncture, go to the gynecologist and I get everything.  

Kristin:    00:34:57    That's great. So how many countries have you traveled to so far as a member of Hacker Paradise?  

Sara:    00:35:03    Oh, I know in total, because <laugh>, we just downloaded the app the other day and like I know in all my life I am at 59 countries. I don't know how many were do with a Paradise. I think maybe 25, 30 at least.  

Kristin:    00:35:21    And you've been to some of these countries more than once? Yeah?

Sara:    00:35:26    Yes.  Yeah, yeah. There are countries like South Africa, I've been back four times. Brazil also four if not five times. Yeah. There are countries I love but I always go back to or some countries like I feel like Mexico is not my favorite country, but it's very convenient. So I always end up also going back to Mexico. Yeah. But I think like with growing up in Europe, you know, it's very easy to travel around Europe. So I started traveling, started counting my country's very early in my, in my life.  

Kristin:    00:35:56    I'm curious what your perspective is, having traveled by yourself and then also traveled with Hacker Paradise, with groups of digital nomads and remote workers. What do you think the impact is on local communities? Do you think it's net positive or is it a negative impact? What's your perspective on this resistance to digital nomad, gentrification and also the criticism of nomads that go for one month and then move on and just increase the prices everywhere allegedly. 

Sara:    00:36:32    Yeah.  Yeah. So this is honest a debate I have in my mind very often. It's a topic of conversation among nomads that happens very often. It's very hard because I can make arguments for both sides. But I, I let's, I would like, I would rather pick the positive impact I think. I think by traveling we can always make conscious choices. Also, as a paradise we don't use Airbnb anymore. Me as an individual, I try to avoid just going to an Airbnb. I mean, and Airbnb can be connected with a, with a local, but like it's, there are ways to just contribute directly to their local economy without going through intermediaries. Intermediaries, <laugh>. So like for example, I would just like find local accommodation and support directly a local family, a local entrepreneur. Same for coworking spaces. I basically kind of never go, I never go to a, like a WeWork, but I find the local entrepreneur that open their own coworking space.  

Sara:    00:37:37    Same with tours. I just try to just find directly a local provider and cafe big corporations and like provide tours. So I think where you see like a good impact, like as much as tourism, not like tourism like is a big portion of some countries economies, then it's sad. Like when you, we see Lisbon I think now is the biggest example that became impossible to live in for the locals but also for many other travelers. I remember I was in Lisbon in 2019 and then I went back last year and was like, oh my God, what happened to Lisbon now it's impossible. It became so expensive and so crowded that I don't even want to go anymore. I've never been to Bali, I'm a weird digital nomad, I've never went to Bali. But I know that there situation also got a bit out of hand.  

Sara:    00:38:27    But at the same time, I have a chance to be in Sri Lanka last year where the digital nomad community is still very, very little. And I could see how like staying an extended time we were actually like contributed to creating something new. But we're no coworking spaces, no where are some coworking spaces that are opening that are is like a new source of income for the person that decided to to open it. So I think like it definitely like creates opportunities for locals, but I don't know where is the limit, you know, I don't know where is the bound, like how can we make it in a way where not the rest of the world becomes like Lisbon <laugh>

Kristin:    00:39:07    Yeah.

Sara:  The valley.

Kristin:  I think it's something that a, a lot of us are thinking about as you mentioned. And I don't know if there's a clear answer or, or one answer because it's so complex. We're talking about the entire world, the, you know, the impact that long-term travelers are having. And you know, I think it's probably a fraction of a percent of the impact that just tourism in general has. But we'd have to think that it will continue to grow and, and this type of travel will continue to be a larger part of the general tourism. But I think that ultimately it is a positive thing because the types of people that are traveling this way want to be sustainable tourists are not even, we don't even wanna be tourists if we're being honest. You know, we wanna integrate with the communities we wanna be, we wanna learn from the local people and we want to talk with them and just try to have a positive impact.  

Kristin:    00:40:12    And so when you take this small segment of the global population that is able to travel like this and then actively does it and then does it for an extended period of time, like five years, eight years, 10 years, 20 years, then I would like to think that the majority of us are having a positive impact in the places that we're going and the relationships that we're creating in each of these places and our interactions with people. And I, I thought that a lot when I was in Costa Rica and then traveling to other countries in Central America, like Nicaragua at the time and Honduras that had less tourism. And where these populations have less access to international flows of people, it does seem like their economies can be behind when it comes to innovation and other things that can just bring up the general public and the wages and everything.  

Kristin:    00:41:19    And so I think that the more intermingling a mixing of cultures and people that we have around the world, the better it will ultimately be for everyone and countries won't be so isolated and self-reliant. So I think it's something that we need to always be thinking about, but it's probably something like a mix of voluntourism uh, public policy government policies with the visas and how they're regulating housing. Like we saw with New York recently banning Airbnbs. Maybe it doesn't need to be that extreme, but maybe there needs to be, you know, more restrictions. 'cause we've seen some exorbitant prices there, but then that money is also going in many cases to locals as well. So it's kind of this mix of complexity that is something that we'll have to address. I think as a community especially, you know, looking at all of the initiatives of groups of nomads, whether it's on a forum like Nomad List or a Facebook group or a traveling community like Hacker Paradise or you know, other types of groups that, um, and even SafetyWing's initiatives to create the first country on the internet.  

Kristin:    00:42:36    We're just basically creating bigger and bigger networks of people living this type of lifestyle that will ultimately have, have influence over public policy. We have purchasing power, we have, we have power as a group, you know, strength in numbers. So it's definitely something to think about long term. And I wish I had the exact answer for everybody same right now. But, um, so what are some of the places that, that have surprised you on your past travels? You know, we all have bucket list destinations, like maybe you've always wanted to go to Paris or the Galapagos Islands or Australia or something like that. But what are, you mentioned that you love, uh, South Africa and Cape Town. But what are some destinations that you've been to that maybe you weren't looking forward to that much or you weren't very excited, but then when you went there you really loved it?  

Sara:    00:43:37    Yeah, so usually in my mind Europe is not that exciting because I grew up there. I've been to many countries, but I must say, but like I feel like with traveling so much through Asia, Latin America and the last years I found myself appreciating Europe. Uh, more and more honestly, Tallinn has been a huge surprise. I was not expecting to like it as much is like, I think one of the coolest city I ever been to. So it was definitely like very, very happy. Even if sometimes it rains or it's colder when I would like it to be, I was like really surprised by how entertained I was by the city. And same with Albania last year I spent a month in Albania and I was like, oh wow, <laugh>, it's really next door to home. And I never even consider Albania as a cool country.  

Sara:    00:44:26    It's beautiful. Like the beaches, the water, um, the history. Like it's was very, very, very surprising. Then I find like Asia or again Latin America or especially Africa, I find them see like more like adventures destinations. So like at the beginning of this year I had the chance to go to Uganda and Rwanda and those like, I, they came with expectations. So like I feel like, okay, this must be amazing. Never been to a place like this. And they definitely like deliver on the, on the experience. But yeah, like Tallinn, Albania was really like, those are usually when I have low expectations and then something like, oh this is so much nicer.  

Kristin:    00:45:08    Which town were you in in Albania?  

Sara:    00:45:11    I spent most of the time in Sarandë by the beach in the south right across Corfu. So it was an easy ferry ride from Greece and I was there in September past the peak season and it was so pleasant. It was really nice.  

Kristin:    00:45:26    Not crowded.  

Sara:    00:45:27    Yeah. Yeah. And it was a, I mean I was a point where I was really, really tired, so I was very happy to be in a sleepy town and not too much to do. It was a great place to recharge.  

Kristin:    00:45:38    I think I'll go there next year too. 

Sara:    00:45:40    Yeah,  I was blown away. But the color of the water, it is beautiful as Greece and parts of Italy. Uh, but I, I dunno, I never made the connection. I was thinking Albania, Tirana the said Gray city, nothing to do <laugh>, but it was really surprising. I would really recommend it.  

Kristin:    00:45:57    Okay, amazing. Yeah, I need to go back there because I've only been to Shkodër and not to the beaches there or the coast.  

Sara:    00:46:05    Totally worth it.  

Kristin:    00:46:07    And then when you went to Rwanda in Uganda, did you go by yourself or did you go with Hacker Paradise?  

Sara:    00:46:15    With my partner. Uh, and it was off working and off, uh, vacation. I wouldn't recommend like Uganda in general, I wouldn't see myself staying for a month in the capital. We stayed for uh, like just like a week as a start point to do, to explore more the west part of Uganda and do a gorilla tracking that was like we highlight of a, of the experience. And to do that you kind of need to go with an agency as long hours driving, unless you're a very confident driver in very broken roads. <laugh> I would recommend you could delegate the driving task to someone who is an expert of a country. And so we went to, to the west part, we did the tracking with the, we saw the chimpanzee in the forest. So it was super, super nice. And then, uh, we did a safari like everyone, when we think about safari in Africa, we think of Kenya, Tanzania, Botswana was surprised by the beauty of a safari experience in Uganda in the Queen Elizabeth National Park. It was unbelievable. I had a chance to do a safari in Kenya, uh, two a few years ago. But this one was really as nice. We saw lions, even the leopard, but I didn't have a chance to see in Kenya. It was really like a very eventful, uh, safari. And then the highlight again is this tracking up in the mountains of a big windy national park to see the gorillas and <laugh>. It was having one of my best experiences of my life. I had goosebumps all over my body was really unbelievable experience.  

Kristin:    00:47:51    So how does that work? Do you just hike into their habitat and then observe them from a safe distance? <laugh> <laugh>?  

Sara:    00:48:00    Yeah, so there is, there are a lot of regulations around it. You need to buy, you, you need a permit, uh, to have very limited permits every day. I know before Covid it used to be a fairly popular destination. You had to book months in advance. Now I'm not a big planner <laugh>, so I only book like three weeks in advance where we're still spot. So I think like it's still recovering from a post covid time is not like maybe a first destination becomes your mind for your travels. So you need this permit and then they assign you to a gorilla family and they assign you to a, a ranger. They hike can be very challenging. They usually ask you the level that you want to be in, but it's easy, medium and hard. It's an estimate because the gorillas, families just go around the, the mountain as much as they like.  

Sara:    00:48:49    There are no barriers. There are trackers they see every day go up and find them when they communicate where they are. 'cause we're definitely still like studying the species and everything. So then with your ranger and your group of maximum for six people, you start hiking <laugh>. There is not even a true path to go up the mountain because it really depends on where they are. You go through some villages, you go through some fields, it can get very, very steep <laugh>. It's very rainy forest, so it can be very humid as well. Our guy that a machete and was like kind of opening the road for us to go up, you hike with boots, like it can get very wet. We were lucky. It was very sunny and nice again. Our trek was like around three hours and we got to the top to find another family moved.  

Sara:    00:49:38    So we have to go down a piece again <laugh>. But then after around four hours we found the family and they were feeding. So we were up on the trees. So we waited pa patiently, I don't know how long, honestly, the days or I think we were like, we waited very patiently and then we here the silverback, which is like the patriarch of the family coming through the woods. And that's the moment I had goosebumps. I was like, oh my God, this is, it is huge. Like it is really, really big. And the family, we were communicating, making some noises and the family with the babies, we were four females and the babies also four, coming down the trees. We leave them like space. And then they usually find a place where we just chill for a few hours. So when they were like set up and we were quiet, we went closer to them. From that moment you can spend one hour maximum observing them. And since we catch all our diseases, we have to wear a mask. It's one of a few places where you still have to wear a mask, <laugh>  

Kristin:    00:50:40    In the forest, in on the, in Uganda, sweating.<laugh>  

Sara:    00:50:44     Um, but yeah, then you spend an hour, they're observing them. The babies are like the funniest thing. They, we try to do imitate the father by doing this. And they spend a lot of time like picking like the bugs out of their hair. They were like very affect. They, we were kind of hugging each other with the moms. We were like very protective. The kids, they kids like, I have no fear. So they kind of come even like fairly close to you. They were like, oh my god, oh my god, it's coming to me. And the mothers and the silver back, they couldn't care less about the fact that we were there. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    00:51:23    That's so funny. 'cause you know, you think of bears and moose and it's like, you don't wanna get near the mother and the baby. So it's interesting that they're like, eh, the kids are just playing around.  

Sara:    00:51:34    Yeah, yeah. And it was like, it was very unique experience, which I would recommend everyone to do. Like in the group <laugh> we are with all retired people, like older people, I feel like it's kind of a destination that adventurous older people kind of, uh, go to. But I truly appreciate doing it like now. And I think, like, I hope to have a chance to go again.   

Kristin:    00:51:56    Yeah. How, how much is it to go on that?  

Sara:    00:51:59    Yeah, it's a bit permit itself. Just the permit is $700 and for the chimpanzee it's $200, $250 <laugh>. So it's kind of a difference in species. We have to put the price on. But basically they, they used to be poached. Like we, we, we were almost distinct gorillas. Like we were really, yeah, were not treated fairly, uh, very nicely. And we were families living out of poaching the gorillas. So they really had to rethink the whole economy and how to make sure that these species continues to live, but also that the economy find some benefit. And like the tracker, the scientist, like there is a lot of work, uh, in studying and preserving the environment. So yeah, that comes with a price, which honestly like it, I was debating. I was like, oh, is it really worth it? Is it what's gonna be like, the moment I was there, I didn't think about the price anymore. I was like, okay, this is, I'm so grateful I'm here that I could do it.  

Kristin:    00:52:57    Wow. So special.  

Sara:    00:52:58    There is also downside, like as every story there is the other part, um, there were triples that were living on those mountains like we were tribes, sorry, that we were living on those mountains but have to be, have to be relocated. So they took them out of the mountains and kind of assigned them another piece of land.  

Kristin:    00:53:19    Why did they have to be relocated?  

Sara:    00:53:21    Because to live as much space as possible to the gorillas families to live like freely and in nature. Because yeah, we were, these villages of these tribes be growing in the, in the forest and there are forest people like from the descendants of the pygmies. So we're like very, very tiny people. And like after the hike we brought us to this kind of tiny village where we, we basically perform for tourist and we show you how we make bread and how we dance and all this and that. Honestly, I felt super uncomfortable, which is good. I think like feeling uncomfortable while traveling. Like it's necessary at times to realize how things actually work. But yeah, that's the, the other side of, but we don't really think much about and we start a, a trip like that.  

Kristin:    00:54:13    Yeah, there's always a fine line, especially when it's tourism regarding animals or indigenous people. But you know, hopefully the company that you use is, you know, reputable and everything. And I think, you know, observing animals in the wild is probably the best type that we can do as long as they're not in captivity.  

Sara:    00:54:39    Yes. Yes.  

Kristin:    00:54:41    But, and I, you know, and if that's going to protect them from getting poached, then it's like the better option. But it's also a tough, you know, ethical question. You know, ideally humans wouldn't have any negative impact on animals, but unfortunately with the fishing industry and the factory farming and the like, there's so many ways that we're harming the-  

Sara:    00:55:04    Yeah, the good thing about how you get the permits for gorillas, but it's just through the national parks.

Kristin:  Okay.

Sara:  The, so it's one way only to get it and it's the national, um, the national park. So at least like you don't have to like make sure that the agency does it right. Because it's just one way to get the tickets, same for the chimpanzes.  

Kristin:    00:55:26    Okay.  

Sara:    00:55:26    So that's kind of like reassuring at least.  

Kristin:    00:55:29    Yeah. Through private companies it would probably be exorbitantly more expensive even. Well, there's another negative travel experience that, or one negative travel experience I wanted to talk with you about, which is a very strange coincidence. So you, you mentioned to me earlier that you escaped a riot in Nicaragua in 2018 and I actually did the same thing in 2008.  

Sara:    00:55:57    Oh wow.  

Kristin:    00:55:57    I had to escape. It wasn't as violent as the one that was in 2018. And I've talked about mine and other podcasts, but what were, what was the situation there? Uh, where did you find yourself and how did you get out?  

Sara:    00:56:13    Yeah, so that was crazy also because, uh, it was my third Hacker Paradise trip <laugh>. So I was like, oh my God, this is, uh, and  

Kristin:    00:56:23    Did I sign up for <laugh>?  

Sara:    00:56:24    Exactly. Is part of a contract? Um, but basically, so luckily we were just a smaller group. We were like 11 of us, 12 of us and mainly already, uh, friends I met on the previous trip. So we were kind of already, uh, mostly, uh, know each other. So we were in Granada, beautiful colonial town. We were in, in the middle of our second week there, out of four, it was the Thursday. So after our talks we were going to a restaurant and we noticed how on the side of the main square we were like a lot of cars and like bikes, a lot, a lot of noise. And we even went closer there to say like, oh, maybe this is like a parade going on. Like, very naively not even thinking. And we so like, oh, this doesn't look great, let's just go to a restaurant.  

Sara:    00:57:10    We get to a restaurant literally after five minutes we go there, we close the doors like, okay, there's something going on. We can still serve you dinner, but we are gonna keep an eye on what's going on outside of the street because things are happening. We knew that in Managua, some protests started, I think we were changing the pension system and it was a lot of like also generational fight of what was going on. And then we finished dinner and they put us in a taxi, went back home and they say, okay, started Googling everything, like what's going on? But also, again, Nicaragua is not like the easiest country to actually get reliable information from. Even like abroad, like my mom in Italy, we never knew anything, like even never made it to the news what was happening in, in Nicaragua anyway, the following day we ask to our coworking space, what's going on?  

Sara:    00:58:00    What do you think? Like should we leave? And I say, oh no, we also don't know. But like for now it's fine, but there is a curfew starting at 3:00 PM today. You say, oh wait, what? And that's that Friday afternoon that more protests starting and kind of peaked for us. Like Friday night, the houses there at walls, but then there are also a lot of our open air. So like the kitchen, but like somewhere our open air, we had rocks throw into the houses. I was like, okay, time to go <laugh>. So that night we kinda started researching for flights to get out and there was one on Saturday at 12 to go to Costa Rica. So we kind of took a group decision. Some people wanted to go back home, which was fair. I was like, okay, totally fair. You guys are free to go back home.  

Sara:    00:58:43    If we go to Costa Rica, would you go to Costa Rica? And everyone was like, okay, let's just do it. Let's go to Costa Rica. So we, we left, uh, that morning, made it to the airport and took out and then that's really when things got much worse. We became friend or like with the coworking people and also we were going to a gym where they, and out with lookers, we were sending us pictures of how like the shops got destroyed. We were like really like violent protests there. And it was like, it was really something that was not predictable for us as foreigners going into a country I would've never imagined. But 10 days after, we would've had to leave because of a protest.

Kristin: Yeah.

Sara:  But then yeah, it was really like intense. Then we got to enjoy Costa Rica. But yeah, that's definitely like one in a kind like never happened again. <laugh> on a paradise trip. But I got the chance to go back to Nicaragua last year and I really had a, a great time. I really like the country.  

Kristin:    00:59:42    Yeah. The people are so nice. It's lucky that the streets were open when I was there. They had blocked off a lot of the roads so you couldn't even get to the airport or anywhere. So I actually went back to Costa Rica because all the roads going north were blocked. But I was able to cross the border and get over. But then the locals aren't as lucky, you know, they can't just leave. So it's important to, to reflect on those kinds of situations and I always feel really grateful for my situation and where I was born  

Sara:    01:00:19    For sure. And like it's really, uh, in our passport, it's really like you come to realize with traveling how the most valuable thing we own is our passport. When like it's a privilege.  

Kristin:    01:00:33    Yeah. Hopefully that passport power ranking will change and flatten out in the future as the world becomes more and more connected. Yes. Before I let you go, Sara, let's do a quick lightning round. So I kind of already know the answer to this first question, but coffee, tea or water?  

Sara:    01:00:56    Oh, <laugh> tea actually.  

Kristin:    01:00:59    What's your favorite tea?  

Sara:    01:01:01    The Oolong.  

Kristin:    01:01:03    Okay. Oh, interesting. Favorite airport.  

Sara:    01:01:06    Oh, good one. I guess Singapore. Easy one. But if I can add something in the lounge of a Venice airport as the best food <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:01:16    Ooh, good to know.  

Sara:    01:01:17    So not that if you ever happen to, to be there.  

Kristin:    01:01:21    Favorite airline?  

Sara:    01:01:23    Used to used to be an easy answer to Emirates but the last time was not as great. So I think we a chance to evaluate <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:01:33    Okay. No more. Emirates, what is um, a money saving travel hack that you've learned on the road?  

Sara:    01:01:40    Oh, good one. I have a setting on my bank app that rounds up every bill and puts the roundup piece into a vault. And without realizing it now there are like 1,500 euros in there that I didn't even plan on saving. But it's rounding up every payment. It just happened.  

Kristin:    01:02:02    Is that with N26?  

Sara:    01:02:04    It's with Revolut.  

Kristin:    01:02:05    Oh, with Revolut. Okay. Interesting. A good savings, automated savings hack there. Uh, what's an essential remote work tool that you use to do your job?  

Sara:    01:02:18    Yes. I couldn't live without Slack. <laugh>. Is that too obvious?  

Kristin:    01:02:22    That's a big one, but anything else that comes to mind?  

Sara:    01:02:26    Um, I'm not a big one on tools. I rely a lot on my brain, which I know is not great. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:02:35    <laugh>. So Slack and the good old fashioned To-Do List.  

Sara:    01:02:40    Yes. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:02:41    Is there anything interesting that you always pack with you?  

Sara:    01:02:46    Uh, I have a Ferrari flag. I'm a big, big Formula one nerd. So I travel with my Ferrari flag, that I take out for every Grand Prix, <laugh>  

Kristin:    01:02:55    Forza Ferrari<laugh>. Okay. Favorite Formula One driver?  

Sara:    01:03:01    Uh, I used to be a huge Michael Schumacher fan. That's how I got into for one when I was a kid. But from the guys now I guess. I mean anyone with Ferrari would bring up the team. I would like them, but if I need to pick one I would pick a Leclerc.  

Kristin:    01:03:14    Leclerc. Okay. <laugh>. I love Formula One too.   

Sara:    01:03:19    Oh, Nice.  

Kristin:    01:03:20    <laugh>. What is something that inspires you right now?  

Sara:    01:03:24    So people <laugh>. I think that's to me the main reason why I kept like working also with Hacker Paradise. The chance of meeting people that I would never, never met if I was staying in my hometown or also if I had a remote job, but just working from my couch, like going around and meeting these people. No, you know Nora, you know Nora, she's here uh, with me. We randomly ended up working out together and I could see her training like with heavier weight than me and she inspired me. Like I think I can also do it. So now I have this thing where I tell her the next time I'm gonna be on the gym I'm gonna channel my inner Nora <laugh> and try to push harder and like that's the thing. But like, you know, it, it's really goes down to people. Like everyone that you cross path with can inspire you for something. So yeah, people <laugh>

Kristin:    01:04:16    Well we'll link to Nora's episode as well because everyone loved her interview. I got so many emails about Miss Nora Dunn, the professional hobo. So check her out.

Sara:  She's great.

Kristin:  And what is something that's challenging you in your life right now?  

Sara:    01:04:32    So a very privileged problem. Sometimes I get overwhelmed on how to pick where to go and I get on a spiral of oh my God, the world is too small. There is nowhere to go. And I think, and then I need to slap myself <laugh> and come back to senses. But like I feel like sometimes that's like a big challenge, like deciding where to go when you have so many options, uh, can be overwhelming.  

Kristin:    01:04:58    And  you travel with your partner?

Sara:    01:05:00    Yes.  

Kristin:    01:05:00     So you've gotta make a joint decision there. Yeah. <laugh>, did you meet while traveling?  

Sara:    01:05:07    Yes.  

Kristin:    01:05:08    Was it Hacker Paradise?  

Sara:    01:05:09    <laugh> maybe. <laugh>.  

Kristin:    01:05:11    <laugh>. Okay. Alright. Yeah. <laugh>. What is something that you know now that you wish you knew then?  

Sara:    01:05:20    Um, that I can do it. Like when I was working in Brussels, I thought I only had like people skills, but like I didn't have the skills to be able to have a remote job but could let me work and travel. I thought that it was just for developers or marketers, but then, but if you really want something, you can find a way to create, uh, like your skills and evolve and like there is always gonna be like the need for what you can offer.  

Kristin:    01:05:49    Yeah. I think that's a good, good point to leave off on is just that you can do it even if have no idea what a digital nomad is. Or if you come from a tiny town in Italy. Or if you're in a rainy Brussels during the winter <laugh>. If you think of something that's better for yourself out there but you don't think you can do it, if you can see it, you can be it. And that is a quote from Quincy Jones in his book, the 12 Notes on Creativity, our Life and Creativity. If you can see it, you can be it. Uh, well thank you so much Sara for joining us today and I think we have a special gift for our listeners, uh, which is $100 off their first Hacker Paradise trip. So how can they get that discount and where can they learn more?  

Sara:    01:06:41    Yeah, so the, the hackerparadise.org is our website. There is a short application page. There is a code section. Uh, you can use the code: Badass Digital Nomad. 

Kristin:    01:06:52    Uh, I think it's Badass 100  

Sara:    01:06:55    Bad. Okay, sorry. <laugh> Badass 100. Use that code and then we are gonna apply to your, to your reservation.  

Kristin:    01:07:01    Alright. I gotta get on one of these trips someday. 

Sara:    01:07:05    Yes.  Come, come.  

Kristin:    01:07:06    I wanted to do it before the pandemic and then everything changed, but I'll look at your list of destinations and maybe next year.  

Sara:    01:07:14    Awesome.  

Kristin:    01:07:15    Thank you Sara. Enjoy your last few days in Tallinn, Estonia. Such a beautiful city and we'll see you again soon.  

Sara:    01:07:24    Thank you very much, Chao Chao.  

Kristin:    01:07:28    I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Sara today and I really appreciated how open and forthcoming she was with both the highs and the lows of group travel and perpetual travel. Remember that you can get $100 off of your first Hacker Paradise trip at hackerparadise.org by inputting the code BADASS 100, that's B-A-D-A-S-S 1 0 0. And as usual, we'll have all of those resources linked up for you in the show notes. I hope that you got some good ideas and inspiration from this episode for your next trip, as well as some things to be aware of when you travel. Thanks for hanging out with me today, and I will see you again next week.